The 250 year milestone was a mockery and a joke. Especially compared to the much loved Bi-Centennial. A lot has changed in 50 years. The news yesterday regarding Bears Ears & Escalante was expected but still repulsive. Chump keeps inventing new ways to lie. And we have to keep listening to it.
All billionaires are not evil.Prejudice against folks with a great deal of money is still prejudice,just like being prejudiced against people with little money. Many wealthy people support the arts, scientific research, build hospital wings, college buildings,and so much more.The real issue is our laws do not regulate how much money the rich or corporations can donate to elections…basically,giving them the ability to “ buy” elections and command how our country’s laws are bent to their needs and desires. This must stop. It is simply wrong, and dooms our nation.
And you know this how? People love to hate. It’s that simple. And you are incorrect. You actually have no idea. How do you think charities exist? Because of the ten dollar donations people like me, or you, give? Hardly.
And have you done fund raising? I have--for cystic fibrosis, breast cancer, and Mercy Ships. Well known it's far easier to raise $ from middle and working class people since they aren't so attached to their money and the status it confers. Besides, there are also way more of us. Your argument sounds like the right wing claim the wealthy pay the bulk of taxes. Also not true.
Same for political campaigns, which I used to run before the D elite abandoned us mere nobody workers. Small amounts from lots of people add up, as does lots of people involved as volunteers. That's how we used win; ask Jim. We weren't dependent on corporate and/or 1%er $$$.
You also call J.P. out, saying "...you know this how?" Yet in the very next sentence make the blanket claim "people love to hate." Your sound sources for that are...? Who are these "people"? Do they include you, your relatives, your friends? Are all religious people committed to Christian love or Buddhist compassion just phonies? Are Indigenous peoples and ecological activists who feel deeply about the land just thinly disguised haters? When we union members say 'solidarity' are we fooling ourselves into believing we care about each other? SMH.
The logic here is a false equivalency. You're arguing as if there were no legitimate reasons to object to billionaires even though you mention the problem of campaign donations. To consider their very existence a problem, indicative of a badly skewed econ system and the power that means for controlling the political system, must be nothing more than prejudice. Notice that prejudice against the poor is a wholly different order. Wealthy class conservatives are sure they deserve what they have whereas anyone poor in the U.S. is such because they're lazy or stupid. Empathy for them is ridiculous because there are no such things as structural barriers. They should just pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. This saying was originally meant to show the impossibility of self rescue and why we need the common good. That it has come to mean the opposite shows who controls the narrative.
You're also not asking why charity is necessary in the first place. There have been socio-political studies about what sorts of things the very wealthy contribute to. Their $ go to what they like, such as historical building preservation and the fine arts. Okay, but that doesn't help get national healthcare, infrastructure repair, better school funding, or low income housing.
Do you know how many billionaires there are? According to Forbes magazine, which heartily approves of such, there are 3,428 world-wide, 989 in the U.S. with Musk close to being a trillionaire. Do you really understand the difference between a million and a billion and a trillion? A million seconds is 11.6 days. A million in $100 bills would fit in a rectangular milk crate, about 22 lbs. A billion seconds is 31.7 years. A billion in C notes is 22,000 lbs, 11 tons, and would fill a large truck. A trillion seconds is 31,688 years. Median income in the U.S. is ~ $80 k. In $100 bills it's 3.47 inches high, size of a card deck. A million $ stacked is 43 inches high. A billion is 3,583 feet high. A trillion is 3,583,120 feet, or 679 miles high. But sure, it's prejudice to point out the massive difference this makes.
Your comments are interesting and make sound points. However I take issue with one of your statements: the rich contribute to fine arts, building preservation, etc. First, the rich contribute to a whole lot more than that. Science, climate crisis, new university buildings and research labs, women’s’ issues, animal rights and the list goes on. As for healthcare,infrastructure,et.al, those are governmental( state,federal,local) territory. (Never funded by the rich or the not rich donations except for our taxes, another issue.)
Yes, I have done fundraising, and still do. In many instances, those small donations add up, very significantly for sure, especially for popular projects. I still maintain the problem now is not so much money billionaires have, but the lack of laws prohibiting large, huge donations to political elections which allow the uber wealthy to buy elections. And just for clarity: I am far from rich, and consider myself liberal.
That a few of the very wealthy contribute to what you list doesn't mean very many do. Their major contributions go to organizations like universities--which means they can determine what kinds of research is done. Similar for corporate giving. Prestige is a reason, too, like bldgs named after them and endowed chairs. Other big recipients are cultural institutions like art museums and the symphony. Whereas middle class donations are way more likely to go to local needs like food banks or women's shelters. Sources: Inequality.org (site recommended by Jim) and The Non-Profit Times. Pro views at The National Philanthropic Trust; notice what they leave out.
Inequality.org also points out the very wealthy use these trusts "to lower their taxes and protect themselves." So then we who don't get huge write-offs are in effect subsidizing the rich. Meanwhile the infrastructures etc. I mentioned are becoming more fragile as funds for them drop since our incomes have been falling for decades. So then do local govt revenues. The uberwealthy feel little responsibility for the communities whereby they get rich. Read the sentiments of the billionaire techies; libertarians who consider govt mainly a restriction on their freedom to do whatever they want. Furthermore, those trusts often give out their $$$ slowly or not at all and are controlled by relatives and corporate associates of whomever set it up.
Nor does this look at the very reason for vast inequality and how our political system is being swallowed up like a python does a rat! The econ system. As neolibs, the D elite dumped New Deal and Keynesian economics. Like the Rs, they're for what's called neoclassical, the Chicago School of Econ founded by Milton Friedman. Who advised Pinochet because "democracy interferes with Market efficiency." This school rests on little more than a deep hatred of the New Deal. Among its assumptions are devastation to human communities and destruction of ecosystems are externalities. In plain English, they don't count. The only things that do are unlimited corporate growth and profit. The Chi School also says the only real human motivation is the utility function, individual personal gain. Anyone saying otherwise must be a fool or a demagogue.
So tell us how, because the uberwealthy contribute occasionally to something beneficial, this offsets an unjustified, rapacious, destructive, and deeply unfair econ system. Beware the billionaires and the other 5 of Jim's Bs!
I agree with all of this, Rafi. My simplistic thought is that someone without massive wealth is always more willing to help people out than those who worship money over everything else.
Just wondering how many millionaires do you actually know well? I don’t claim to know many, but I do know quite a few.( Don't know any billionaires!) The ones I know, with one exception, are incredibly generous. The one with the most money is leaving most all of it all to charity . This , along with seeing mega donations to universities,hospitals, the arts, health organizations, and animal charities, is the reason I think it is the tax laws which need to change, and the laws pertaining to how, much money can be donated to political endeavors. I do know for a fact the federal government will not , does not , support most of the endeavors I mentioned. In fact, just today, it was announced the federal government is withdrawing funding from health research projects across the board. Just saying…
Go look up the actual stats. I listed some sources above showing where donations are made by whom and why. A few nice millionaires is not the same as the actions of multimillionaires, let alone billionaires. Literally huge differences in scale. Along with a detailed critique of how a deeply inequitable econ system is why any of this is needed, which you have resolutely avoided. A common tactic of those who can't really defend their position is to ignore what their opponents say, no matter how logical or well researched it is. {sigh} I've already put in far more than this issue deserves, so this is my last entry.
Like Trump's Bitcoin scam...everyone BUT the uninformed investors made money. The investors got stuck holding the bag and losing their shirts while the scammers made...humm, what was that again? BILLIONS
You're right Jim. Once the techno/kleptocrats have made their F/U money on some techno-venture of dubious value, they no longer feel accountable as members of society. Their only motivation is their grift and their celebrity. They have the resources to actually improve the world but choose instead to feed their grandiosity.
I've been reading "A people's history of the United States" by Howard Zinn. We have been through this before, but not with such a corrupt White House.
The 250 year milestone was a mockery and a joke. Especially compared to the much loved Bi-Centennial. A lot has changed in 50 years. The news yesterday regarding Bears Ears & Escalante was expected but still repulsive. Chump keeps inventing new ways to lie. And we have to keep listening to it.
Sigh
Right on. Unfortunately.
Made me think of the “Super Delegates in the 2016 Democratic Primary. Got Hillary what she wanted but left some of us tasting BS.
..as I recall, the polls were very clear: Bernie could beat djt -- but hrc would not, and didn't.
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." -George Orwell, ANIMAL FARM, 1945
All shareholders are equal, but some are more equal than others.
The branches of the US government are coequal. It's just that, these days, some are more coequal than others. Beware of billionaires, indeed...
All billionaires are not evil.Prejudice against folks with a great deal of money is still prejudice,just like being prejudiced against people with little money. Many wealthy people support the arts, scientific research, build hospital wings, college buildings,and so much more.The real issue is our laws do not regulate how much money the rich or corporations can donate to elections…basically,giving them the ability to “ buy” elections and command how our country’s laws are bent to their needs and desires. This must stop. It is simply wrong, and dooms our nation.
I beg to disagree . There are a handful of philanthropic rich folks, but mostly they are just money hoarders
You're right. See my two replies to LW.
And you know this how? People love to hate. It’s that simple. And you are incorrect. You actually have no idea. How do you think charities exist? Because of the ten dollar donations people like me, or you, give? Hardly.
And have you done fund raising? I have--for cystic fibrosis, breast cancer, and Mercy Ships. Well known it's far easier to raise $ from middle and working class people since they aren't so attached to their money and the status it confers. Besides, there are also way more of us. Your argument sounds like the right wing claim the wealthy pay the bulk of taxes. Also not true.
Same for political campaigns, which I used to run before the D elite abandoned us mere nobody workers. Small amounts from lots of people add up, as does lots of people involved as volunteers. That's how we used win; ask Jim. We weren't dependent on corporate and/or 1%er $$$.
You also call J.P. out, saying "...you know this how?" Yet in the very next sentence make the blanket claim "people love to hate." Your sound sources for that are...? Who are these "people"? Do they include you, your relatives, your friends? Are all religious people committed to Christian love or Buddhist compassion just phonies? Are Indigenous peoples and ecological activists who feel deeply about the land just thinly disguised haters? When we union members say 'solidarity' are we fooling ourselves into believing we care about each other? SMH.
The logic here is a false equivalency. You're arguing as if there were no legitimate reasons to object to billionaires even though you mention the problem of campaign donations. To consider their very existence a problem, indicative of a badly skewed econ system and the power that means for controlling the political system, must be nothing more than prejudice. Notice that prejudice against the poor is a wholly different order. Wealthy class conservatives are sure they deserve what they have whereas anyone poor in the U.S. is such because they're lazy or stupid. Empathy for them is ridiculous because there are no such things as structural barriers. They should just pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. This saying was originally meant to show the impossibility of self rescue and why we need the common good. That it has come to mean the opposite shows who controls the narrative.
You're also not asking why charity is necessary in the first place. There have been socio-political studies about what sorts of things the very wealthy contribute to. Their $ go to what they like, such as historical building preservation and the fine arts. Okay, but that doesn't help get national healthcare, infrastructure repair, better school funding, or low income housing.
Do you know how many billionaires there are? According to Forbes magazine, which heartily approves of such, there are 3,428 world-wide, 989 in the U.S. with Musk close to being a trillionaire. Do you really understand the difference between a million and a billion and a trillion? A million seconds is 11.6 days. A million in $100 bills would fit in a rectangular milk crate, about 22 lbs. A billion seconds is 31.7 years. A billion in C notes is 22,000 lbs, 11 tons, and would fill a large truck. A trillion seconds is 31,688 years. Median income in the U.S. is ~ $80 k. In $100 bills it's 3.47 inches high, size of a card deck. A million $ stacked is 43 inches high. A billion is 3,583 feet high. A trillion is 3,583,120 feet, or 679 miles high. But sure, it's prejudice to point out the massive difference this makes.
Your comments are interesting and make sound points. However I take issue with one of your statements: the rich contribute to fine arts, building preservation, etc. First, the rich contribute to a whole lot more than that. Science, climate crisis, new university buildings and research labs, women’s’ issues, animal rights and the list goes on. As for healthcare,infrastructure,et.al, those are governmental( state,federal,local) territory. (Never funded by the rich or the not rich donations except for our taxes, another issue.)
Yes, I have done fundraising, and still do. In many instances, those small donations add up, very significantly for sure, especially for popular projects. I still maintain the problem now is not so much money billionaires have, but the lack of laws prohibiting large, huge donations to political elections which allow the uber wealthy to buy elections. And just for clarity: I am far from rich, and consider myself liberal.
That a few of the very wealthy contribute to what you list doesn't mean very many do. Their major contributions go to organizations like universities--which means they can determine what kinds of research is done. Similar for corporate giving. Prestige is a reason, too, like bldgs named after them and endowed chairs. Other big recipients are cultural institutions like art museums and the symphony. Whereas middle class donations are way more likely to go to local needs like food banks or women's shelters. Sources: Inequality.org (site recommended by Jim) and The Non-Profit Times. Pro views at The National Philanthropic Trust; notice what they leave out.
Inequality.org also points out the very wealthy use these trusts "to lower their taxes and protect themselves." So then we who don't get huge write-offs are in effect subsidizing the rich. Meanwhile the infrastructures etc. I mentioned are becoming more fragile as funds for them drop since our incomes have been falling for decades. So then do local govt revenues. The uberwealthy feel little responsibility for the communities whereby they get rich. Read the sentiments of the billionaire techies; libertarians who consider govt mainly a restriction on their freedom to do whatever they want. Furthermore, those trusts often give out their $$$ slowly or not at all and are controlled by relatives and corporate associates of whomever set it up.
Nor does this look at the very reason for vast inequality and how our political system is being swallowed up like a python does a rat! The econ system. As neolibs, the D elite dumped New Deal and Keynesian economics. Like the Rs, they're for what's called neoclassical, the Chicago School of Econ founded by Milton Friedman. Who advised Pinochet because "democracy interferes with Market efficiency." This school rests on little more than a deep hatred of the New Deal. Among its assumptions are devastation to human communities and destruction of ecosystems are externalities. In plain English, they don't count. The only things that do are unlimited corporate growth and profit. The Chi School also says the only real human motivation is the utility function, individual personal gain. Anyone saying otherwise must be a fool or a demagogue.
So tell us how, because the uberwealthy contribute occasionally to something beneficial, this offsets an unjustified, rapacious, destructive, and deeply unfair econ system. Beware the billionaires and the other 5 of Jim's Bs!
I agree with all of this, Rafi. My simplistic thought is that someone without massive wealth is always more willing to help people out than those who worship money over everything else.
This is great! You said all the things I was thinking but couldn't put into words
I just added one more rebuttal.
Just wondering how many millionaires do you actually know well? I don’t claim to know many, but I do know quite a few.( Don't know any billionaires!) The ones I know, with one exception, are incredibly generous. The one with the most money is leaving most all of it all to charity . This , along with seeing mega donations to universities,hospitals, the arts, health organizations, and animal charities, is the reason I think it is the tax laws which need to change, and the laws pertaining to how, much money can be donated to political endeavors. I do know for a fact the federal government will not , does not , support most of the endeavors I mentioned. In fact, just today, it was announced the federal government is withdrawing funding from health research projects across the board. Just saying…
Go look up the actual stats. I listed some sources above showing where donations are made by whom and why. A few nice millionaires is not the same as the actions of multimillionaires, let alone billionaires. Literally huge differences in scale. Along with a detailed critique of how a deeply inequitable econ system is why any of this is needed, which you have resolutely avoided. A common tactic of those who can't really defend their position is to ignore what their opponents say, no matter how logical or well researched it is. {sigh} I've already put in far more than this issue deserves, so this is my last entry.
Every time I see one of those ice box Tesslas, I want to throw up..
Like Trump's Bitcoin scam...everyone BUT the uninformed investors made money. The investors got stuck holding the bag and losing their shirts while the scammers made...humm, what was that again? BILLIONS
You're right Jim. Once the techno/kleptocrats have made their F/U money on some techno-venture of dubious value, they no longer feel accountable as members of society. Their only motivation is their grift and their celebrity. They have the resources to actually improve the world but choose instead to feed their grandiosity.
Nothing short of our very own Bastille Day is going to make a difference.
Need to tax billionaires right out of existence.
Thanks Jim.A word to the wise,should be sufficient.